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DIN 1505-2 replaced by ISO 690 #4290

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gloschtla opened this issue Aug 31, 2019 · 18 comments
Open

DIN 1505-2 replaced by ISO 690 #4290

gloschtla opened this issue Aug 31, 2019 · 18 comments

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@gloschtla
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@gloschtla gloschtla commented Aug 31, 2019

Since there is a problem with DIN-1502-numeric.csl, I found out that in line 205 the following needs to be corrected:
<layout prefix="[" suffix="]" delimiter="], [">
..into:
<layout prefix="[" suffix="]" delimiter=", ">
This line I discovered after I have created my own fork from iso690-numeric-fr.csl, in order to correct the problems of DIN-1502-numeric.csl

Another unwanted feature in DIN-1502-numeric.csl is the import of my notes.
Anyway, would you please merge DIN and ISO into one csl and also provide a version without abstract, notes?

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@stale stale bot commented Sep 30, 2019

This issue hasn't seen any activity in the past 30 days. It will be automatically closed if no further activity occurs in the next two weeks.

@stale stale bot added the waiting label Sep 30, 2019
@gloschtla

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@gloschtla gloschtla commented Sep 30, 2019

This issue hasn't seen any activity in the past 30 days. It will be automatically closed if no further activity occurs in the next two weeks.

nope!

@stale stale bot removed the waiting label Sep 30, 2019
@adam3smith

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@adam3smith adam3smith commented Oct 4, 2019

I understand DIN 1505-2 isn't technically valid anymore, but it still appears to see a fair amount of usage, so we're not going to merge them with ISO 690, no.

As for the citation format -- the two formats do different things.

produces [1], [2] (as e.g. used in IEEE style) whereas

produces [1, 2] (like most other numeric styles)
I don't see clear indications which of the two is correct.

@gloschtla

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@gloschtla gloschtla commented Oct 7, 2019

@adam3smith; The amount of usage means nothing when this citation style is the only one, which suits the German standard, as it claims by its name. Afterall, many people will discover that there are problems with this style. Well, the name 'DIN 1505' could remain, because many people keep searching for this outdated standard. Still it should have 'ISO 690' added into its name, so this style can be found by both search terms.

As I already explained above by the source code, the original version of DIN 1505 wrongly produces [1], [2] instead of [1, 2]. This forces many people to search for a better alternative style.

@ApolloLV

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@ApolloLV ApolloLV commented Oct 10, 2019

As far as I know, the ISO 690 standard is distinct from the DIN 1505 style.
That means they can and should not be merged.

@gloschtla

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@gloschtla gloschtla commented Oct 13, 2019

If ISO 690 did not replace DIN 1505, then I would not have opened this issue on github.
Here you may check the reference, stating that DIN 1505 is no longer valid ⤵️
amendment note & full text

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@adam3smith adam3smith commented Oct 13, 2019

I understand 1505 isn't valid as a DIN anymore. I'm fairly certain, though, that this doesn't make its use impossible or illegal and I'd be fairly certain that there are plenty of Lehrstühle that still refer,
specifically, to the old DIN norm and not the updated ISO 690 one. You can argue that that's normatively bad and against the spirit of norming citation styles and I'd have a lot of sympathy for that, but my goal here is to provide maximum utility for users who often don't have a choice in this matter.

We have plenty of "outdated" citation styles (such as APA 5th edition, MLA 7th edition, Chicago 16th edition, etc.) available for download for just that reason. We´ll keep DIN 1505-2 for just that reason, though I´m happy to take PRs for an ISO 690 one (and it looks like @ApolloLV has started work on that).

As for [1], [2] vs. [1, 2] I was asking which is/was correct according to the DIN. I couldn't find a clear statement either way and both occur in citation styles.

@ApolloLV

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@ApolloLV ApolloLV commented Oct 17, 2019

According to DIN ISO 690:2013-10, [1, 2] can be used.
It appears as (27, 28) in the example for numerical citations on page 32.
Regarding the surrounding brackets, superscript ², (2), and [2] are all valid according to section A.3.1.
Page numbers are given as (13 p. 556) in the example.

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@ApolloLV ApolloLV commented Oct 17, 2019

I'll take a look at the rules in the old DIN 1505-2 later.

@gloschtla

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@gloschtla gloschtla commented Oct 18, 2019

We don't necessarily need to rename "DIN 1505-2" into "ISO 690", but we should merge these two names somehow, so people will find the updated ISO when searching for outdated DIN...

I would say, most university citation manuals are just outdated. So let us just help them to discover the updated version ;) ...by the way: I discovered this github entry by searching for DIN via Mendeley Desktop, which uses these citation styles hosted here on github.

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@ApolloLV ApolloLV commented Oct 22, 2019

I still disagree with merging styles, but what might be acceptable is to amend the title of the "DIN 1502-2" as "DIN 1502-2 (ersetzt durch ISO 690)" or to change "ISO 690" to "ISO 690 (Ersetzt DIN 1502-2)"

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@ApolloLV ApolloLV commented Oct 25, 2019

I'm sorry, but I can not access DIN 1505-2 because of its withdrawn status.

@gloschtla

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@gloschtla gloschtla commented Oct 29, 2019

The withdrawn DIN can still be read in your local library.

I can give you reasons, why the citation style should be updated: ISO 690 has no catastrophic differences to DIN 1502-2. Users might not realise the difference.
And after updating i would rename it into "ISO 690, formerly DIN1505-2"

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@stale stale bot commented Nov 28, 2019

This issue hasn't seen any activity in the past 30 days. It will be automatically closed if no further activity occurs in the next two weeks.

@stale stale bot added the waiting label Nov 28, 2019
@stale stale bot closed this Dec 12, 2019
@gloschtla

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@gloschtla gloschtla commented Dec 16, 2019

Is this issue closed? Or does it still exist?

@ApolloLV

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@ApolloLV ApolloLV commented Dec 16, 2019

Well, no action was taken AFAIK.
I am still strongly opposed to merging the styles, but would support adding a deprecation note to DIN1505-2.

@adam3smith

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@adam3smith adam3smith commented Dec 17, 2019

We have added the ISO 690 styles (thanks @ApolloLV ). As I said before, we're not going to remove/merge DIN1505-2.

@rmzelle can you think of good language to add to the title of 1505 to signal that ISO 690 is a more recent version of the standard?
'

@adam3smith adam3smith reopened this Dec 17, 2019
@stale stale bot removed the waiting label Dec 17, 2019
@ApolloLV

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@ApolloLV ApolloLV commented Dec 17, 2019

I have created a merge request adding the notice.
The updated style title would read

DIN 1505-2 (numeric, German, superseded by ISO 690)

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